Bill Burr is working on his rage — and it makes for good comedy
TERRY GROSS, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Bill Burr, was recently described by New York Times comedy columnist Jason Zinoman as one of the greatest living stand-up comics. In Rolling Stone, Burr was described as the undisputed heavyweight champ of rage-fueled humor. Bill Burr has a new comedy special on Hulu called "Drop Dead Years." It starts streaming Friday, March 14. Here's an excerpt. He's talking about driving on the freeway in LA, where he lives, when he's caught in bumper-to-bumper traffic. Meanwhile, there's hardly any cars in the HOV lane - the high-occupancy vehicle lane - which is reserved for vehicles with at least two people. He's tempted to get into that lane, even though there's no one else in his car, but he knows the HOV rules are strictly enforced.
(SOUNDBITE OF COMEDY SPECIAL, "BILL BURR: DROP DEAD YEARS")
BILL BURR: I could go in there by myself, OK? But if there's a cop there, I'm going to get pulled over. I'm going to get yelled at. I get a ticket, and my insurance goes up. I am not allowed to do that. However, I can still join the Klan.
(LAUGHTER)
BURR: I could join the Ku Klux Klan and not get in trouble, right? I don't get yelled at. I don't get a ticket. No insurance goes up. I could drive down the highway in my Klan outfit as long as I had the mud flap up, right? It could say grand dragon on the front of the sheet. I could have a white power bumper sticker. I could have a Hitler bobblehead right on the dashboard just sitting there going like that. I would not get pulled over unless I went into the HOV lane, right?
(LAUGHTER)
BURR: Then - and then I wouldn't get pulled over because I joined a terrorist organization. I would get pulled over 'cause I didn't have another terrorist with me. That's what the problem would be. Yeah.
(CHEERING)
BURR: Yeah, the cop will be coming up like, well, well, well. Aren't we in a hurry to get to the cross burning this evening, huh? Who the hell do you think you are, buddy?
GROSS: OK, that's Bill Burr from his new comedy special. He's also one of the stars of the new Broadway revival of the David Mamet play "Glengarry Glen Ross." The revival has an incredible cast - Burr, Kieran Culkin, Bob Odenkirk and Michael McKean. Burr costarred in the film "King Of Staten Island," which was loosely based on the life of the film's star, Pete Davidson. Burr cocreated, cowrote and starred in the animated series, "F Is For Family." Although he's known for comedy that's often contrarian and angry, the new comedy special "Drop Dead Years" opens like this.
(SOUNDBITE OF COMEDY SPECIAL, "BILL BURR: DROP DEAD YEARS")
BURR: It's kind of a weird thing to be over 50, really starting to realize, like, how [expletive] you are. Like, I thought I did stand-up 'cause I loved comedy. And then what I really figured out was, like, no, that's not why I did it. I did stand-up because that was the easiest way to walk into a room full of a bunch of people that I didn't know and make everybody like me.
UNIDENTIFIED ANNOUNCER: Ladies and gentlemen, Bill Burr.
(CHEERING)
BURR: The way I've moved through the world has always been like, where's the place I have the least chance of being hurt?
GROSS: Bill Burr, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's a pleasure to have you on the show.
BURR: (Laughter) What's going on? How are you?
GROSS: (Laughter) I'm good. It seems unusual for you to start on a note of vulnerability, like you do in this new special. Does this mark a change in your public or private self?
BURR: It's something I've kind of been going towards. But also, I don't think - you know, like most people that get on a stage, they just sort of watch what you do and then think that this little sliver of you is what you are or whatever. Like, that Rolling Stone thing saying that I was the king of rage comedy, you know? And it's in Rolling Stone, so everybody listens to it. So then they just think I'm walking around just furious all the time. It's two-dimensional.
So - and then there's also a part of me that really hates the fact that I have been so angry and had this temper and stuff. It was something I never wanted to be. It's something I grew up with. And, you know, you think to yourself, like, I'm not doing that. I'm not going to be like this person 'cause they're making me feel bad as a kid. And then you grow up, and you end up - it's the weird thing. In order to not be it, I think a lot of times, you have to be it for a while. And it's weird. You - it takes somebody else in your life to let you know that that's how you're being because a lot of times, you just dialed it down a little bit, and to you, that means you've leveled off. Like, where your normal is is not where normal people's normal (laughter)...
GROSS: Yeah, right.
BURR: ...Is. So you're like, what, you know? I didn't throw a chair across the room. I'm an easygoing...
GROSS: (Laughter).
BURR: I let stuff roll off my back.
GROSS: So who is the person who told you? Was it your wife, your therapist?
BURR: Everybody in my life. Everybody (laughter) - people reviewing my act, my wife. You know, there's only - like, you can only argue your point, you know, for so long. I mean, it - when, like, a hundred people in the row are going like, nah, you know, you're pretty angry. You know, you got to...
GROSS: (Laughter).
BURR: ...Be like, all right, I guess I got to look at this. But it's been, like, a great thing. But, like - I don't know - I listen to people. I try to, anyway. So when they come at me with something, you know, if it makes sense - OK? - if it makes sense, and I'm in an emotional state that I can actually hear somebody else, which sometimes that might take a day for me to think about something. I am the king of, a day later, being like, hey, you know that thing I was arguing last night? Yeah, you were right. I'm sorry. I just - I don't know why.
And then, you know, what's the torture right now is I find myself in the moment now, knowing I'm wrong or knowing I should just stop this argument and it's not worth it, and I've gotten to the point that that voice is getting louder in my head, but I haven't been able to act on it in the moment. And that's what I'm working towards. I would love to be in the middle of some stupid argument with my wife or whoever and just be able to stop in the middle of it and just be like, what are we doing? Life is flying by. This isn't worth anything, you know? This isn't worth it. Let's - who cares? You know, something like that.
GROSS: At the start of your new special, you said that you started doing stand-up 'cause it was the easiest way of walking into a room and making people like you.
BURR: They would like me so they wouldn't hurt me.
GROSS: So what kind of hurt? Are you talking about insults or being ignored, bullied, mocked?
BURR: Every way that you can be abused is what I'm talking about.
GROSS: Have you been abused in all those ways?
BURR: Oh, yeah. I got the trifecta.
(LAUGHTER)
BURR: I have the background needed to become a comedian. So, yeah, it just was - it's just how it was, and it's just the time I grew up in, and it was just the way it was. And there was a lot of it. There was a lot of it. I did not have a unique experience growing up. I kind of feel like I had the standard, especially from, you know, talking to people, or maybe I just hang out with too many comedians. I don't know what. But we all kind of had a similar background. And, you know, when you go through stuff like that, you come out the other side it kind of seems one of two ways. You either come out being like, I'm not doing that. And then what's funny is you overcorrect, and you become super empathetic to the point you could end up in the trunk of somebody's car like, oh, I'll help you out, stranger, you know?
(LAUGHTER)
BURR: Or you go the other way is, like, you become an abuser. So fortunately, I didn't do that, but I have been guilty of being abusive, not realizing, you know, the effect that my behavior and my anger was having on the people around me because in my world, I wasn't as angry as what I saw growing up. So in my world, I wasn't angry. It wasn't a big deal. What I've actually found is, you know, that whole myth that you can't be happy and still be funny is a myth. And what it actually does is it breathes new life into your act because you can now go back and revisit topics you've been to before and have a 360 perspective instead of, Iike - like, I always feel like my stand-up, like, the first 75% of my career is me standing onstage pointing at the crowd figuratively, literally or at whatever subject. And I was always the guy that knew everything and da, da, da, da, da, you know?
And the last, like, you know, six, seven years - whatever, I don't know - I've more been looking at my participation in whatever event is happening. So then all that does is it gives it this whole - it gives me way more - twice as many options for the punchline now. I don't know. I feel lighter onstage lately. I don't feel - you know, there was times I would even have good stats, and I would get offstage and just feel like, God, what was that? What was that? That did not feel good (laughter). Even though the response was good, but it just kind of felt like - it just - it didn't feel good.
GROSS: Because it was mean?
BURR: It was gross. It was just dark, ugly, just pain and hurt just coming out the wrong way where - which is so funny 'cause some of the comedians that I love the most, the way that they processed their pain was a very empathetic sort of way, which I would say Richard Pryor was the king of that, where you could - he just really had this ability of talking about his mistakes that he made in a way that you could see that it bothered him that he did some of these things.
And it also made you root for him. Like, I felt like that was the biggest thing I had, as far as being a fan of his work was beyond finding it hilarious and jaw-droppingly brilliant was I found that I was rooting for him in his personal life as he was going through all these marriages and divorces and problems with the cops and abuse and lightning himself on fire. Like (laughter), you know, he just, like - I don't know, I loved the guy, and I was just hoping he was going to find peace.
GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is Bill Burr, and he has a new comedy special. It begins streaming on Hulu March 14. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF AMANDA GARDIER'S "FJORD")
GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Bill Burr. He has a new comedy special called "Drop Dead Years" on Hulu. It starts streaming Friday, March 14. And he's also one of the stars of the new Broadway revival of David Mamet's play "Glengarry Glen Ross." I want to back up a little 'cause when you were describing your anger and trying to, like, change. You said you realized you'd been abusive. Do you mean verbally or physically?
BURR: Oh, no, no. Verbally.
GROSS: Good. I just wanted to clarify that.
BURR: OK. I'll give you a classic example of that was I - my thing was I grew up, and I saw men calling women [expletive] all the time, and I saw the looks on their faces, and I saw it - so I made this rule in my head I was never going to do that, and I never did it. I've never done that, and - never done that to anybody. I don't think in a - I've never done it in a relationship. I might have done it driving in a car. I'm sure I have (laughter).
GROSS: That's one of the things you've talked about is that you...
BURR: But I...
GROSS: ...Had real road rage sometimes.
BURR: I don't even think that's fair for me to say I have road rage. I have rage, and now I'm in a car, so now it's on the road.
(LAUGHTER)
BURR: I have road rage. I have kitchen rage. I have why-do-I-have-to-check-myself-out-at-a-CVS rage. I don't work here, you know what I mean? I love when they're, like, giving you, like, a rough time. Like, you got to insert the chip. It's like, yeah, I'm sorry, I missed training day when I wasn't working here...
GROSS: (Laughter).
BURR: ...Getting paid.
GROSS: (Laughter).
BURR: Or when they try to get all your information, and then they go, you know, we don't share this with anybody. And you want to be like, you don't. You don't. Like, this is my thing with, like, politicians. The fact that the lack of privacy for the average American citizen, especially women - with the amount of women out there that have psycho ex-boyfriends - the fact that all of these stupid corporations are just allowed to do the things that they're able to do is beyond me.
And where my comedy act is right now is I'm trying to get regular people to stop yelling at each other and realize that it's a select few group of nerds - OK? - eating raw almonds and doing their stupid workouts and everything and just competing with each other to have the biggest infinity pool, and the rest of us are getting pushed down. And they've politicized the whole stupid thing, and we're falling for it.
GROSS: And who's the they besides the people who eat almonds?
BURR: That idiot Elon Musk.
GROSS: Oh.
BURR: That guy, like he's going to lead - like who evidently is a Nazi. Like, I just refuse to believe that it was an accidental two-time Seig heil. And he does it at a presidential inauguration. This is why I hate liberals. It's like liberals have no teeth whatsoever. They just go, oh, my God. Can you believe - I'm getting out of the country. I'm just like, you're going to leave the country 'cause of one guy with dyed hair plugs and a laminated face who runs - who makes a bad car and has an obsolete social media platform? You're going to leave this - why doesn't he leave? Why isn't he stopped? What are we so afraid of this guy who can't fight his way out of a wet paper bag?
GROSS: You going to take him on (laughter)?
BURR: Like, what is - why do liberals just sit back and not - they just - they have nothing.
GROSS: What are you doing?
BURR: This.
GROSS: OK.
BURR: This. You got to speak up about it. You don't just go like, oh, my God. What? (Vocalizing). Like, listen, first of all, it's, like, I'm a stand-up comedian. It's not my frigging job. I'm talking about, like, Democratic politicians. Where is their pushback? They're allegedly liberal. You see this guy do this thing, you know what the end result of this thing is, which all these neo-Nazis, not only are they stupid because they're neo-Nazis, they don't even look at what Hitler did. He ruined their country, and this idiot is going to try to lead us down that road and then play it off and act like he didn't do what he just did.
And you can get canceled as a comedian for doing a frigging Caitlyn Jenner joke, but this a**hole can Seig heil and nothing - where are all the liberals? Where are all of these white chicks at the award shows that were speaking truth to power? Where are they? Why did they choose to go after comedians and not the Ku Klux Klan? How come they never got canceled? That's my whole problem with liberals. I just think it's a phony ideology where what they really do is it's a bunch of white chicks trying to fix their immediate area. Like, they really took on entertainment because they were in entertainment...
GROSS: OK, I'm going to stop you.
BURR: ...And then they didn't do anything else.
GROSS: I'm going to stop you. You just blamed all of this on white women.
BURR: Yes, because they control...
GROSS: Where are the men? Where are the men in what you're saying?
BURR: Exactly, because you guys went in, and you totally took control of the narrative. That whole #MeToo thing was supposed to be about people with no power speaking to people with power and giving more people opportunities, which meant people of color. And then all of a sudden, white women jumped in and became, like, the biggest victims in the country. They were the ones that were being listened to. That was what was weird to me.
GROSS: This is where you kind of lose me.
BURR: It doesn't surprise me...
GROSS: No, because...
BURR: ...On this station talking to a white woman that I would lose you.
GROSS: Well, no, because the #MeToo movement for women is about sexual assault.
BURR: But then what did it become?
GROSS: And whether you're white or Black or young or...
BURR: But what did it morph into? What did it quickly morph into? It then morphed into I don't like the topic of what you're discussing in your standup act.
GROSS: Well, I don't want to get into an argument about this, so I'll just say...
BURR: Well, what's funny is this is how I discuss things (laughter).
GROSS: I will just say that - what was the thing that I just said? I just lost it for a second trying to...
BURR: I'm saying what it became. It started off like, all right, this Harvey Weinstein guy is raping people. We got to get people like this out of the business. There was nobody who was against that unless you were an actual...
GROSS: But people were protecting him. You know, people were protecting the musicians, the producers, the studio people.
BURR: I'm not arguing that aspect of it. I'm not arguing that aspect of it.
GROSS: Anyhow, let's move on (laughter).
BURR: Wait. No, no, no, no, no, no. Let's talk about that.
GROSS: We're not going to move on? OK.
BURR: #MeToo started with that. And then it started this cancel culture thing with initially, they were getting these people that were sexually assaulting women, and because of their position of power, were not being held accountable. They finally got held accountable. Everyone who is a decent human being was on board with that. And then suddenly, within a year, it became if you were at a comedy club and somebody filmed you and took one little piece of excerpt from your act, all of a sudden, you were thrown in with Harvey Weinstein. And you were kicked - you were, like, put on the bench, basically, and you were not allowed to work in the frigging business. Am I nuts? Did that not happen?
GROSS: No, I mean, I think cancel culture probably went too far. I think it's an issue by issue thing.
BURR: All right, so we agree. OK, fine, fine, fine.
GROSS: And there's a real kind of herd mentality around some of it. I think that's really up for a nuanced discussion about what deserves cancellation and what's just, like...
BURR: Nuanced discussion is not one of my strong points.
GROSS: Yeah.
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: OK. Anyhow, you know, we've been talking about, you know, anger and also channeling that into your work as an actor and a comic. I watched a clip of you on "The Moth." "The Moth" is a storytelling podcast that is also a public radio program. And you're so different in that. You're sitting on a stool, not kind of pacing back and forth on the stage. You hadn't shaved your head yet, so you have, you know, red hair. And...
BURR: (Laughter) You hadn't gone bald yet.
(LAUGHTER)
BURR: It was almost like you were 20 years younger.
(LAUGHTER)
BURR: You had a fresh face.
GROSS: Yeah, I wanted to say recorded about 20 years ago.
BURR: You had no dad bod. You were a single man dealing with the altitude and - (laughter).
GROSS: So but you're just - you're sitting on a stool telling a story that has a few laughs in it. But...
BURR: No, you know what it is? That's what I was battling, and that's why I couldn't get any good roles. The greatest thing that ever happened to me is I went bald for my acting career, because then I shaved my head. And I look like the psycho idiot that I am.
GROSS: (Laughter).
BURR: But back in the day when I actually had - (laughter) when I had hair, you know, Hollywood, you know, they talk about just, you know, racism and sexism. It goes beyond that. Like, they even divide up redheads. There was, like, rules about redheads. I was in the redhead drawer, OK? I was in the Opie, Ron Howard, "Howdy Doody" drawer.
GROSS: (Laughter).
BURR: And, like, I didn't get the gun. I didn't win the fight. I didn't get the girl. I was a mugging victim.
GROSS: (Laughter).
BURR: I was just there for the cool guy. And I was saying - I used to do a joke in my act like, I'm not the hero of the action movie. Like, I was the nerd in the van when Tom Cruise is going, you got to give me more time. And I would be in front of the keyboard - all right, I'll try. Click, click, click, click. Like...
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is comic and actor Bill Burr. He's got a new comedy special that's about to start streaming on Hulu. It's called "Drop Dead Years." And he's one of the stars of the new Broadway revival of David Mamet's "Glengarry Glen Ross." We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF ANDRES VIAL, RODNEY GREEN, PETER BERNSTEIN AND DEZRON DOUGLAS' "BLUEHAWK")
GROSS: This is FRESH AIR I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with comic, writer, actor and director, Bill Burr. His new comedy special "Drop Dead Years" is about to start streaming on Hulu. He's one of the stars of the new Broadway revival of the David Mamet play "Glengarry Glen Ross."
Let's talk a little bit about your childhood.
BURR: Oh, Jesus. People are driving to work here. You know, let's try to give them something uplifting.
GROSS: (Laughter) Your father, apparently, you know, from what I've heard you say, had real rage problems - real anger problems.
BURR: And I'll tell you this - he was a normal guy. He was normal, like all the dad - the dads when I - in my neighborhood when I grew up, the dads were frigging terrifying. Terrifying. They were just, you know, buzz-cut lunatics. This is when I was really young, early '70s. Just was - it was a different time. So I don't want to just single out my dad, right? He's just the dude I had to deal with, but, like, you know, a lot of my buddies I was growing up with came from divorce. So they romanticized my household just for the simple fact that my parents were still together. So what's funny to me, my favorite moment in my new special is I say, you know, me and my wife, we've been married, whatever, 10 or 11 years, and the crowd spontaneously gives a round of applause. And I just - I go, hey, hey, I go, you're not in it. You know, For all you know, I got her chained to a radiator.
GROSS: I know. I love that - when you say that.
BURR: Yeah. So that's the thing cause...
GROSS: It's so funny.
BURR: ...I'll tell you, like, there was - like, back in the day, like, you know, divorce was just starting to become normal. So I sort of grew up towards the tail end of that, you know, you dance with who you brung and you stick with - by your guy. There was a lot of women that - it's like, is this a marriage or is this like a hostage situation?
GROSS: It's very funny when you say it, and you're literally right.
BURR: I remember one time I was playing, like, Hot Wheels or something like that over a buddy of mine's house. He was, like, my best friend. And we were playing, and his dad came home from work and didn't know I was there. And he started in on his wife. And I knew where it was going, 'cause that was the kind of house I grew up in, and I saw the look of panic on his face. And I knew that shame, and I knew that embarrassment. And I just said, oh, you know what? This is how young we were, 'cause he actually believed this. I just went, oh, you know, I just remembered. I got to go home and go do something. And he was like, oh, OK, OK (laughter). And I went out the side door. And I was cutting through the woods. And I remember I laughed the whole way home, and I couldn't wait to tell my siblings about it. And they were all, like, blown away, like I had been to the moon and came back. And I go, no, his dad is just like our dad. They were like, really? I go, yeah, he was screaming and yelling and calling her names.
GROSS: Did your father go off on you?
BURR: (Laughter) What do you think?
GROSS: I think probably yes.
BURR: Oh, my God.
GROSS: OK.
BURR: Oh, my God. Yeah. Like, yes. Yes. But this is the thing is I'm older now, and I understand that he didn't understand what he was doing - what it was doing to me because he dialed down what was done to him. So the same way I didn't think I was an angry person because I wasn't as angry as him, it took meeting somebody like my wife to be like, you're really messed up, and your behavior is hurting me and it's making me feel bad and all of that type of stuff. So, you know, I almost lost my wife when we were dating because of it, and I loved her, and it was like, what am I going to do? Am I going to choose love and work on myself or am I going to lose this person? So, you know, that has been - me working on my anger is like a government project. Like, it's over budget.
GROSS: (Laughter).
BURR: When is it ever going to get done? You know, so I would say the big thing when I was a kid was I felt this powerlessness. And I just felt like I was on my own, and I felt like I wasn't being heard.
GROSS: I think you're really good at transforming your real anger and your history of real anger and your history of being the target of real anger into comedy. And an example of that I want to play is from the animated series that you starred in and co-wrote, "F Is For Family." And in the opening episode, the family is sitting around the dinner table and the phone rings and the father really goes off on it, and you play the father. So let's hear that scene and then we'll talk.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "F IS FOR FAMILY")
BURR: (As Frank Murphy) I'm not answering that.
(SOUNDBITE OF TELEPHONE RINGING)
LAURA DERN: (As Sue Murphy) Frank, you should answer it. What if somebody got hurt?
BURR: (As Frank Murphy) Nobody ever gets hurt at supper, Susan, OK? It's always some salesman, and I'm not answering it.
JUSTIN LONG: (As Kevin Murphy) Dad, we all know you're going to answer it.
BURR: (As Frank Murphy) You don't know a thing about me.
(SOUNDBITE OF TELEPHONE RINGING)
DERN: (As Sue Murphy) What if it's important?
BURR: (As Frank Murphy) I sweated blood at that airport for 12 hours today. And what's important to me is I have just one moment of peace with my family, enjoying a delicious home cooked meal. Is that too much to ask? I'm not answering it.
(SOUNDBITE OF TELEPHONE RINGING)
BURR: (As Frank Murphy) Murphy residence. Oh, let me tell you something, you [expletive], I don't need a [expletive] engraved family Bible. You see? You see? What'd I say? Every time. I am eating dinner with my family, young man. I don't need a $25 Bible to teach me about God. I almost bled out in Korea, alright? I have met God.
GROSS: Did you write that scene?
BURR: I wrote it with a bunch of people. So it was sort of an amalgam of everybody's parent, like, dad, or whatever, in that period. It's more the funnier side of anger. It's also - he really shows his love and affection for Susan on the show the way I wished I had seen that in my house and in other houses. And it's something that I try to make sure that my kids see - that they know how much I love my wife and how beautiful I think she is and how amazing I think she is, and it's something that I feel like I've really advanced the ball, so to speak, with my kids because they're really happy kids, and they know that they're loved. This is what I've finally gotten to with all my demons is I can't fix it. All right, it happened. There's nothing I can do about it to make it not have happened. I just look at all of that stuff. My job is that that stuff dies with me. It doesn't get passed on.
GROSS: It must be great to see yourself through their eyes. They probably have a different picture of you than you think other people have of - they don't have this vision of you as, like, the angry guy onstage.
BURR: Yeah, but Terry, do I really do anything to help you not see me that way?
(LAUGHTER)
BURR: I mean, in this - I mean, I literally start the thing going, you know, hey, you know, it's only a part of me. And then two seconds later, I'm flipping out about this stupid thing.
GROSS: (Laughter).
BURR: I mean, that's literally - like, what you literally saw in this interview...
GROSS: Yeah.
BURR: ...Is a day of being me. It's like, me starting the day, I'm not going to flip out. I am going to be as happy - da, da, da, da, da. And then before 11 a.m. - (yelling) - I'm flipping out.
GROSS: (Laughter).
BURR: And then I'm, oh, sorry about that. And then the other person is a little upset with me. And then by 3 in the afternoon, some are like, eh, I guess he's all right. I think I'll sign up for another day with this. This is basically - this is just where I am right now. And I'm trying to make it to 12 noon without flipping out or whatever. I just sort of baby step my way through this.
GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is Bill Burr. And he has a new comedy special. It begins streaming on Hulu March 14. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF HERLIN RILEY SONG, "TWELVE'S IT")
GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Bill Burr. He has a new comedy special called "Drop Dead Years" on Hulu. And he's also one of the stars of the new Broadway revival of David Mamet's play "Glengarry Glen Ross."
So you're a father of two. And one of your series that - I think you cocreated "Old Dads," right?
BURR: It was a movie. I cowrote it with Ben Tishler, and we actually just cowrote something else that we're going to be shooting later on this year.
GROSS: Well, one of the things in "Old Dads" is that the older fathers, which includes you, don't relate to some of the younger parents and how they're parenting their kids. Did you find that with yourself, you know, being a father?
BURR: That's what happened. I went to the school, and it started off with little things. And it was like, oh, hey - yeah, look at you - you guys are on the jungle gym. And it's like, it's called the structure. And then I get all nervous like, oh, my God, jungle, monkeys. Did I just say something racist? Is that why you can't say that anymore? Like, I don't know what it was. And then, you know, we were going around, you know, looking at schools and everything. And they were like, this is a child-led program. Like, we let the children (laughter) lead. So we go out, and there's all these dirty kids, like, just running around. It was chaos. It was like, is this "Lord Of The Flies" preschool?
GROSS: (Laughter).
BURR: Like, what are we doing here? What are we doing here? A lot of people in Hollywood are older dads because, you know, this business is so hard, trying to figure out how to get a footing and actually get a steady job, you tend to have children later. And then one of my biggest fears when I was a younger comic, and I looked at older comics who never got married and never had kids, and they were still doing shows and then hanging out afterwards, trying to pick up (laughter) chicks at the end of it. And it was just, I was like, oh, my God. I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to be that guy. Like, I wanted to get married at 26 and have, like, five, six kids. But I didn't know how to do it.
GROSS: So you know what I'd like to do? And...
BURR: Have me stop talking?
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: You do a podcast where you talk, like, an hour straight.
BURR: Yeah, I know. I do.
GROSS: Or more - often more. Your mind probably is always on overdrive.
BURR: No, that comes from a couple of things. One thing is I have a certain level of social anxiety because of the stuff that I went through that I am really comfortable being alone. And somebody - a good friend of mine, she posted this thing on Instagram that said hyper-independence is a trauma response, as far as, like, you know, I'll just do everything myself or whatever. And my dad does that. Like, (laughter) if he wants an addition on his house, he does it himself. And he's a dentist (laughter). It's hilarious, right? And I was doing that. And I think, in a way, doing a podcast by myself is sort of the fallout of that. And I can talk to a whole bunch of people, but they can't get to me or hurt me. I don't know. It's not the main thing, but it's in the gumbo of that. And I've learned all of these things post-doing mushrooms (laughter).
GROSS: Oh, really? Well, those are really interesting insights. And you got them from doing mushrooms?
BURR: Oh, yeah. I would say therapy is the treadmill (laughter). But mushrooms is this cold bucket of water that just is like, oh, my God. I started tripping, and it was goofy, and I was laughing. And I was like, wow, this is wild. And then all of a sudden, like, this feeling came over me. And I couldn't really figure out what it was. How would I - it was this profound sense of loneliness. And then I just asked - I think I asked a question, which really is a cool thing to do when you're on mushrooms, to kind of say, what are you trying to tell me? And the answer was basically, this is how you felt growing up.
And that just, like, blew my mind because I thought I didn't care, because that's what I always said. That was my sort of catchphrase - I don't care, I don't care. That's how I dealt with it. And how I connected with people was I made them laugh. And then I became a standup comedian, and then all these strangers were going to love me, and then the pain was going to end. And then I was going to be totally fixed. Well, that didn't work. So this let me know that it did bother me, and that I was hurt and it did affect me. And it was the weirdest thing. Like, for like a week after, I was who I would've been if all of the stuff didn't happen to me. It was like this honeymoon phase, this euphoria. It made me want to become a better person. It made me want to fix my life. But then after seven days, the anger came back tenfold, and then I had to work through that, but that was only like a three-week thing because I kind of saw who I could be.
GROSS: I feel a responsibility to say here that it's recommended that if you do mushrooms, you do it in a therapeutic setting so if things do go bad you have somebody to guide you through it, because you really don't know what to expect. You might want help.
BURR: You know what, Terry, you're a good person.
GROSS: Oh, well, thank you (laughter).
BURR: You saw me leading people astray, and look at you - you just said, in a very elegant way, don't do what this idiot just did.
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: So let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is comic and actor Bill Burr. He's got a new comedy special that's about to start streaming on Hulu. It's called "Drop Dead Years." We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF JOOST BUIS & ASTRONOTES' "HUMMELO")
GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with comic, writer, actor and director Bill Burr. His new comedy special, "Drop Dead Years," is about to start streaming on Hulu. He's one of the stars of the new Broadway revival of the David Mamet play Glengarry Glen Ross.
So I'm tempted to do something, and I don't know whether I should do it or not.
BURR: Do it.
GROSS: OK, so here's what I'd like to do. There's a bit that you do, and I found myself both laughing and stopping laughing and then figuring out, like, I'm not sure which way to take this. And so what I'd like to do is...
BURR: That's amazing. I can't tell you how happy that makes me feel...
GROSS: Good. OK.
BURR: ...To know that that's how you felt.
GROSS: Good. So let's play it, and then we can talk about it, if that's OK with you.
BURR: OK, let's do it.
GROSS: OK, great. So this is a part you've just talked about men and all of - like, a lot of men's flaws. Then you say, you know, you're going to talk about women.
(SOUNDBITE OF COMEDY SPECIAL, "BILL BURR: LIVE AT RED ROCKS")
BURR: Every time I think feminism has kind of, like, died off, you know, like a band you can't stand...
(LAUGHTER)
BURR: They haven't put out an album in a few years, and you're like, oh, good. Did they quit? Did they break up?
(LAUGHTER)
BURR: And all of a sudden, they come out with some more [expletive]. And you're like, oh, what is it now?
(LAUGHTER)
BURR: I'm just [expletive] with you. Feminism doesn't bother me. I'm not afraid of it or anything like that, you know, for the simple fact that I know it's going to fail, you know?
(LAUGHTER)
BURR: And I take comfort in that. I do. I'm not rooting for it because I know it doesn't like me.
(LAUGHTER)
BURR: Yeah. Do you know why I think it's not going to survive? You know why it's not going to be successful anyways? Because they still need men's help to make it happen. I don't understand it. I don't understand why women just can't work with each other. Then they keep coming to us like, more men need to care about this issue. Where are the men to stand up and say something? Yak, yak - yak, yak, yak.
(LAUGHTER)
BURR: Like, why do I have to say something?
(LAUGHTER)
BURR: This is your problem.
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: OK.
BURR: (Laughter).
GROSS: So that's my guest, Bill Burr. Here's what I want to talk with you about. I want to talk to you about perspective, because when I listen to that, I think that is really funny if you're coming from the perspective of, of course men have to be involved because the whole point of feminism is becoming equal and getting men who perceive women as less than or as incompetent or stupid or, you know, any of the patronizing things or insulting things, misogynist things that men may think - men have to change in order for feminism to succeed, in order for women to get the equality.
BURR: How come men didn't have to change for them to succeed? They didn't need women. We didn't need women to...
GROSS: Because women were already subservient (laughter). Men already controlled everything.
BURR: Yeah, but why is that?
GROSS: It's historically been that way, but let me...
BURR: Yeah, but why is that?
GROSS: Let me finish my point, OK? So I think it's really funny if your perspective is like, this is funny because obviously men have to change in order for feminism to succeed. But it's not so funny to me if your perspective is, what do they want from us men? Why don't they just leave - this is their issue. Why don't they just leave us alone? And that to me isn't funny because that would mean, like, you don't get it. You don't get that men who still think that women are lesser than or secondary or, you know, not smart enough, not capable enough, not deserving of equality - if you're coming from that perspective, it's not funny because it means you're clueless, that you don't get it. But if you do get it, it's really funny because you're coming from the perspective of getting it and mocking the people who don't. So your turn.
BURR: All right.
GROSS: OK.
BURR: I just thought it was hilarious that when that #MeToo thing came out - right? - all of these guys all of a sudden were walking around, and they had on these male feminist buttons. And it was hysterical to me that women didn't call out the BS of that because it's like, where was that button before this happened? You had your whole life to wear that button, and you didn't wear it until guys were getting thrown off the bridge of their career.
GROSS: (Laughter).
BURR: Then all of a sudden, I'm a male feminist - females first. And you fell for it. (Laughter) I mean, that's a red flag. Let's just take it out of men and women. No one's going to care about what you want more than you, so you got to empower yourself to do this. It's like, where is your responsibility in supporting other women? Or, like, you'll hear, like, in Hollywood, we need more movies with women in them. It's like, well, go write one.
GROSS: That's what they're doing.
BURR: Go write one.
GROSS: They weren't given the chance to do it before.
BURR: That's not true.
GROSS: The doors were closed.
BURR: It's just not true.
GROSS: It's pretty true.
BURR: It's not true, it's not true.
GROSS: (Laughter).
BURR: Do you think the door was open for a bald, redheaded ginger to come in at 50-something years old? Do you think Hollywood was waiting for that? Do you think I just walked out there like, oh, you're a guy. What are your dreams? Send us a list, and we're going to make it happen.
GROSS: And women have gone through exactly the same thing if they're not beautiful or young enough.
BURR: Exactly. So, like, OK, so I went through it, too, in my own way.
GROSS: But that's the thing. When I was growing up, the only jobs for women were nurses, teachers, cashiers, secretaries. There was very little else you could do.
BURR: Prostitution.
GROSS: Well, OK, sex worker. Yeah. There's very little else you could do. The doors are basically shut. So...
BURR: Listen, I don't have a problem with women. You know, you can view me however you want to view me, but I know what I've done in my career as far as, like, who I've worked with and what I've been doing. And, like, at the end of the day, the joke that I'm doing, I'm making a point. I'm also being playful, but I'm also not going to be this person just going, like, yes, you are 100% right because you are a woman, and you are not flawed at all, and you are not abusive, and you are not responsible at all for where you are in life. If you're not where you want to be in life, it's because of men. I don't subscribe to that any more than I subscribe to, hey, these dumb broads need to be home, making me a sandwich. I'm not that guy, either. I'm somewhere in the middle, and I like to tease everybody. So if you want to listen to my act and be like, you know, this part I like but that part I didn't, I mean, that happens to me every night. So I don't know.
GROSS: Yeah, so, just getting back to that joke one more time.
BURR: (Laughter).
GROSS: It's the kind of open-ended joke that you can see from either perspective. You can see it...
BURR: I feel like I'm in "The Terminator" right now. He just keeps coming. That's all he does. He's not going to stop.
GROSS: I knew you wouldn't like this. But...
BURR: I'm enjoying the hell out of this. I...
GROSS: Oh, good. OK.
BURR: There's nothing I like better than debating.
GROSS: OK. So I tried to establish that you could see that joke from two different perspectives, one of which I found really funny, and the other, which I found clueless. Do you want to leave it ambiguous like that? So that bros in the audience...
BURR: It isn't ambiguous.
GROSS: ...Can see it one way - OK.
BURR: Oh, stop with the bros term. Everybody with their terms now. Bros. That all these guys are bros. Isn't that the feminist word for broads? No, 'cause I'm a woman. It doesn't work that way. This is the thing. It's deliberately ambiguous.
GROSS: OK.
BURR: OK. Because that's what I am. Because I am everything in that joke. I am enlightened, and I am ignorant.
GROSS: Thank you. OK.
BURR: I am clueless. And I am that - don't say thank you like you just won something.
GROSS: No, thank you for the explaination.
BURR: I am you. See, I'm defensive then. You backed me in the corner, 'cause you kept coming at me with this You kept punching me after the bell, you know? We're supposed to go back to the stools, and you get that overhand right in over the referee.
GROSS: You said you loved debating.
BURR: I do. But then I always end up becoming this. This is the guy I'm trying not to be.
GROSS: No, but it's interesting to me that you see yourself coming from both of those perspectives and that you have both of those perspectives.
BURR: I do. I am a man. I absolutely love women. I find you guys fascinating. And at the same time, I find you incredibly frustrating. And I got to be honest with you, if you watched my earlier stand-up, I'm like women this, women that - that had nothing to do with women. It had to do with the fact that I didn't know how to get on with my life, that I wanted to get married, I wanted to be in love, I wanted to have kids, and I didn't know how to do it. And I didn't understand what my problem was, and I didn't know how to fix it, so I blamed what I wanted. So there's also that.
GROSS: I just want to say, in case it's not clear, I think you're hilarious. There's some jokes where I stand back and I go, I'm not sure how to take that, but I think you're a great comic.
BURR: Listen, there's a lot of stuff I've done I look at and I go, did I say that? You know, it happens (laughter).
GROSS: I love your voice. I love your delivery. I love your spontaneity.
BURR: I'm waiting for, having said that.
GROSS: No. No. However (laughter).
BURR: However.
GROSS: No, no. The only however is sometimes I just don't know how to take the jokes, and I can interpret it one of two ways.
BURR: That's the great thing about comedy. Well, I had a great time talking with you, and I had a great time debating with you. And I really like you.
GROSS: Oh, good. Thank you.
BURR: Even though we didn't line up on everything, but I liked that.
GROSS: Oh, thank you.
BURR: I liked that we didn't.
GROSS: I really enjoyed it. Thank you.
BURR: Alright, thank you so much. I'll see you.
GROSS: Bill Burr's new comedy special "Drop Dead Years," start streaming Friday on Hulu. He's one of the stars of the new Broadway revival of David Mamet's "Glenngary Glen Ross." It begins previews tonight and opens March 31. We recorded our interview last Tuesday. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be New York Times editor David Enrich. He'll talk about his new book "Murder The Truth." It chronicles a campaign by billionaires, politicians and corporations to silence journalists and undermine free speech protections. I hope you'll join us.
(SOUNDBITE OF BRUCE HORNSBY SONG, "BACKHAND")
GROSS: To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at @nprfreshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrok directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.
(SOUNDBITE OF BRUCE HORNSBY SONG, "BACKHAND")
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